[clug-talk] Linux Blows...and Sucks

[Shawn]

Juan Alberto Cirez wrote:
> Silly me. I thought that my comments would start a sincere and honest 
> discussion on the state of GNU/Linux. Instead all I've gotten is 
> narrow-mindedness and fanaticism (i.e my d*** is bigger than yours). My 
> bad, I should have known.
> I guess time will tell.

"What we have here is a failure to communicate"

Having finished reading through todays tome that is this thread, I note 
a few things.

Gustin and Dafydd are both trying to tell you that they see things 
differently.  That the "average user" can easily use Linux or Windows.

Juan sees windows as being easier to use than Linux.

Both opinions are perfectly fine/correct.  Because they are OPINIONS and 
these are formed on personal observations/experiences.  I see very 
little that is getting into a "pissing match", though I do see some 
comments heading towards a flame war.  But, the very subject line of 
this thread should have set up expectations of a flame war.  To pretend 
surprise when it happens is disingenuous.  (Ha.. big word, go look it 
up! lol)

My take on the conversation so far.  Juan has not yet shown me any 
proper support for his position.  And in some cases actually counter's 
his position.  Juan points out (very correctly) that

"LINUX = The KERNEL"

Yet the subject line says *Linux* Blows.  But then he goes on to tell us 
(in the original post) that his experience of Linux on the servers is 
very good.  So which is it?  Does Linux suck in general?  Or does a 
particular desktop interface suck?  If it's the desktop interface, then 
the subject line is wrong and this whole conversation would have gone 
differently.

Challenging someone in a Linux Users Group with "What have you 
contributed lately" is akin to sadism/masochism.  The three people who 
have been predominantly responding have ALL contributed to the 
Linux/FOSS ecosystem in various ways.  To point out one fallacy though - 
asking Dafydd what he has contributed shows a lack of knowledge about 
Dafydd in general.  His employer is a well known contributor to various 
elements of the Linux software stack, and Dafydd also does things on the 
side.  I think the only worse person to ask this question of would be 
Aaron Seigo.  (with regards to CLUG that is)

Regarding children.  My daughter sits at my computer occasionally and 
NEVER has any trouble doing what she wants.  Any troubles she does 
encounter is a simple lack of knowledge about where things are (to be 
expected for a young child).  She has this same sort of trouble on 
Windows computers.  i.e. "Dad, how do I start the typing program 
again?", or "Mom [who runs windows], how do I start the typing program 
again?".

Regarding adults.  My roommate is a Class-B pressure welder.  Loose 
translation of that is "I know how to turn a computer on, but not much 
more".  I had him using a Linux desktop for a couple years.  HE figured 
out on his own how to do typical things (web, office productivity, 
etc.).  It's funny to hear him tell his work mates that they should be 
running Linux when they complain about the latest virus...  My point 
here is that one person's experience is NOT the same as every person's 
experience.

Saying Windows is "easier" is a loaded statement and needs a lot of 
qualifiers.  Easier for who?  In what context?  For what tasks? to name 
a few.

For who:  Windows IS easier for anyone who has previous experience with 
Windows.  The "Windows Interface" has been drilled into us for decades. 
  This is decades of training to do things a particular way.  Moving 
from that mindset to Linux means some things need to be unlearned 
because Linux IS NOT WINDOWS.  This is where the frustrations primarily 
come from (IMO).  Given enough time any Windows user can comfortably use 
a Linux desktop environment.  When MS changes the interface rules (MS 
Ribbon anyone?) there is a general uproar about how "unusable" these 
changes are.  How is that different than the different philosophies of 
the various desktop environments?

Context:  Windows at home, versus Windows at the office serve two 
different roles and require different approaches and skills.  Why should 
a Linux distribution be different?  Linux at home IS easy, for just 
about any typical home user type needs.  Linux at work is a different 
situation and may not always be the best choice.  But, even if it is 
adopted, see the "For Who" bit above - the differences work themselves 
out soon enough.

Tasks:  Juan implies Linux on the server makes more sense than Windows 
on the server.  I personally agree with this.  But Juan also says 
Windows on the desktop is better than Linux on the desktop.  I say "It 
depends".  It depends on the specific user in question.  It depends on 
the applications to be used.  It depends on how critical that 
computer/role is.  If an experienced Linux user needs to provide CAD 
diagrams as a critical part of the business, this can be done.  However 
if everyone around them is using AutoCad and expect everything this 
person does is also in AutoCad, then this is a case where installing 
Linux is a stupid move.  Use the right tool for the job - considering 
the context of that usage as well.

Jesse introduced the car analogy (they are just so easy and fitting with 
regards to FOSS vs Proprietary).  I'll continue this...

Juan, your statement is very much like saying "I have always drivin a 
Ford F150.  It's a good workhorse truck, but it sucks as a daily 
commuter vehicle.  Therefore  ALL Ford products suck as a commuter 
vehicle."  Your statement is flawed in that it suggests no other options 
have been considered.  And even if those other options ARE included, you 
seem to say that everyone must have the same opinion as you.

If you want me to have the same opinion as you, you need to give me hard 
data/links/resources that explain your position.  And at that time I MAY 
  chose to revise my opinion.  Or not.  (thus far the supporting 
evidence you have presented seems to be rather lacking)

Regardless of what my opinion is, ignoring other's statements as being 
"wrong" because they do not agree with your view, is clearly going to 
set you up for an argument and flame war.  You are much better to ask 
for clarification or references - which promotes a more healthy 
discussion (IMO).

And just in case it's not clear, all my above comments have been made in 
an objective manner.  No personal insults/slurs intended.

K.  This post took longer than I thought.  But I think my points have 
been made.

Shawn