[clug-talk] GNU/Linux Blows...and Sucks

[Shawn]

Juan Alberto Cirez wrote:
> For the last time: TO THE AVERAGE USER WINDOWS IS EASIER TO USE. 
> GNU/Linux on the server space is the $**t; but as a Desktop it 
> blows...and sucks

Juan, you continue to ignore the evidence/situations presented to you 
that demonstrate that an "AVERAGE USER" is fine with Linux.  You 
continue to ignore the fact that we are DISCUSSING this with you.  You 
continue to ignore the request for more concrete support than a known 
biased IDC article that really has no bearing on LINUX DESKTOP (the 
article and stats are about netbook usage/sales - not Linux Desktops. 
Not the same thing).

> The average user does not know, or care to know how to compile programs 
> from source; or know what in hell's name a device driver is. An average 
> user is someone that unlike most of the reader of this list, does not 
> have a computer (or software development) background so please stop 
> interpreting my comments based on your own level of computer 

How is a sample of my non-techy roommate's usage of a Linux computer, or 
my young daughter's, interpreting your comments from MY level of 
knowledge?  I can say that I know a number of "average users" who are 
using Linux (some doing so without any input/support from me) who have 
no clue what it means to compile from source, or "install a device 
driver".  Both of these just are not an issue with anything modern (i.e. 
last 5 years or so).  Especially with the more popular hardware.

> proficiency.  I mistakenly assumed that your experience with GNU/Linux 
> would have given you an insight into the challenges people without such 
> experience encounter. Again, I was wrong.

Here you are attacking my character, rather than my statements/opinions. 
  Faux pas.

I routinely deal with these so called "average users" who do not have 
the background/experience we do.  And they do not have the troubles you 
insist they must have.  Where I do see issues, it is in places that make 
absolutely no difference what OS they are on.  Areas such as 
understanding how to set up a mail client, or creating an image in a 
certain way.

> For the past three years or so we have been trying to introduce 
> GNU/Linux to the local government, schools districts and small to 
> mid-sized business. So far that endeavor has been less than a 
> spectacular success simply because the learning curve is to steep. This 
> has been the case in every age group, category and proficiency level. 

Links or supporting documents?  We can't help if we don't know about it.

> This of course is not hard to see: Microsoft has spent billions on R&D, 
> so naturally its final product would have addressed (or at least 
> attempted to address) in some ways the inherent difficulties in HMI and 
> well as hardware integration. I think we (the GNU/Linux) community  have 
> spent  so much time and effort hating Microsoft that we fail to 
> recognize (and worse, emulate) some of their successful approaches.

Microsoft has also spent billions ruthlessly locking down the market and 
on marketing telling us they know what is best for us.  Sure there are 
some good ideas in the Windows interface.  But it's not the end all/be 
all of interfaces.  And here you have ignored the comment in my last 
message where I indicated we have been "trained" on the Windows 
interface over the past 2 decades, and that training needs to be 
unlearned in some cases because Linux is not Windows.  But if you take 
someone who has never touched a computer before and put them in front of 
Linux, they may or may not have the exact same problems if you had put 
them in front of Windows first.

Believe it or not, most of us also work with Windows through the day, or 
via our customers.  Almost everyone I know of on the list will advocate 
the right tool for the job.  If an organization is already an MS shop, I 
don't know of anyone that would recommend a wholesale switch to Linux. 
How is that "hating Microsoft"?  I dislike MS's business practices 
(which are well known and documented - 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft scratches the 
surface).  But I do think they have some decent products.  I just refuse 
to pay the exorbitant fees for those products.  I can think of better 
uses for my cash and can replicate the services those products provide 
with FOSS products.  Yes that is ME - but non-techy people are doing the 
same thing as well.

I'll admit my demeanor implies a strong anti-Microsoft stance.  In 
reality though it is more an "anti-bad-business, and a cheap bastard 
stance".

> The fact that no one has even raised the possibilities these same issues 
> exists in GNU/Linux is simply astounding when the proof is so glaringly 
> apparent: Take a trip to your local Office Depot and grab some 
> peripherals at random (printer, network cards, etc.) see how many of 
> these devices will work right out of the box in both Windows and 
> GNU/Linux; then see how easy and/or intuitive would be  to  "get 
> everything  to work" in both OS. The fact that no one recognizes this  
> tells me of the disconnect between the open source developing community 
> and the average user.

where to start with this.  The easy part.  Stop mixing arguments. 
Hardware support is an issue with ANY operating system, which has been 
mentioned now in a few responses  Take your own advice.  Go to a 
hardware store and buy the absolute latest version of any moderately 
advanced hardware.  Now tell me it "works flawlessly" out of the box. 
On a 10 year old OS like WinXp, maybe.  Vista, maybe and maybe not. 
Windows 7 - good luck.  This is no different with any OS.  Newer 
hardware takes a year or so to settle down the quirks, or build drivers 
for the newer OS's, etc.

Next part.  This lack of action on problem areas is a "bury your head in 
the sand" and ignore the evidence to the contrary approach.  KDE 
continuously reviews usability of the KDE stack - including non-native 
KDE apps in some cases. (we have the KDE4 branch as a result of this 
usability consideration, among other reasons)  They have a dedicated 
person on the board of directors for this.  Gnome continues to remove or 
hide the more confusing options to make things easier for the mythical 
"average user".  Ubuntu focused on interface and usability with Jaunty. 
  They have outright stated this is important moving forward - because 
the hard stuff (like hardware support and simply getting the basics 
running) has been beat, or has a healthy ecosystem to address these 
areas.  Ubuntu has undertaken their 100 Paper Cuts project to address 
the minor annoyances that have cropped up over time.  Regular users 
continually offer feedback via bug reports and feature requests to 
address usability issues.  The entire Linux Desktop environment has 
surpassed Windows to the point that the Windows interface you are 
advocating is a blatant copy of LINUX Desktops.  And Apple. And BeOS, 
and OS/2, etc.  Not only is the interface getting better all the time, 
but so is the underlying code.  Other OS's struggle to make this claim

But another point you miss is that LINUX does NOT compete with Windows. 
  This is a perception thing.  Linux continues to do it's own thing and 
always will.  If the marketing pundits want to say there is a 
competition, let them - most of us don't care and continue our work.  If 
someone says Linux needs more market share, it's to pad their own 
pockets in some way (IMO).  Linux doesn't care and continues at it's own 
pace.  If someone says that Linux should be more like Windows so more 
windows users will use it, then I humbly suggest that person doesn't 
understand the ideals of open source.  Getting more people to use Linux 
is a great thing.  Becoming a clone of Windows to do so is NOT a great 
thing.  Linux is NOT Windows.

To clarify the above paragraph some, Linux desktops do not have a 
central planning committee.  Each project (KDE, Gnome, XFCE, Flux, etc.) 
all have their own philosophies and ideals.  The development efforts are 
decentralized.  And this is a good thing.  It means that if something 
really really bothers you, hire a coder or write some code yourself and 
make it do what you want.  If you contribute those changes back to the 
community and the community likes it, it is accepted into the ecosystem 
and everyone benefits from this contribution.  So, if you think 
something is broken or needs to be different, are you doing anything 
about it other than posting this thread?

Finally, you have demonstrated to me that you take our discussion in a 
defensive manner.  We may dispute some of your claims pending more 
concrete evidence, but we are not disputing you personally or your right 
to make the claims.  But you seem to be interpreting things as though we 
are.  You are ignoring the comments made and offering attacks on our 
characters.  And on top of this you continue to interpret the discussion 
as US ignoring YOU and your opinions.  This to me is the definition of a 
troll.  As the advice says - Don't feed the trolls.

You'll get no more response from me on this thread until I see less 
troll-some posts. Though I do reserve the right to respond to someone 
else's comments.

My thoughts.

Shawn